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Can't We Just Talk About This?

Sadly, talking with a five year-old can teach you a lot about adult discussions on religion.

I have a five year-old daughter, which means that on occasion I get a dose of irrationality in my day. Usually it's nothing I can't handle, but from time to time Ella busts out something that is so cosmically frustrating that it makes me want to grind my teeth to the gums. The sad part is that she doesn't know how much this particular tactic annoys me, and gets this surprised look on her face when I finally reach my boiling point.

No - I take that back. The sad part is that a five year-old can make me reach my boiling point by just being five. But that's the beauty and agony of parenthood: kids are kids. They're not minature adults with the capacity to reason and think and intuit. They're only learning how to take information in, and thus crave as much of it as they can. Sure, they're also learning a bit at a time how to filter that information and make rational decisions, but for the most part they're just trying, literally, to take it all in.

Which brings me back to Ella's little finishing move, the one that paralyzes me almost instantaneously:

Not listening.

Now, I'm not talking about her being distracted by something and my words just slipping past her radar undetected. Neither am I talking about her death-of-a-thousand-whys maneuver.

I'm speaking specifically of those instances in which she continues with her line of five year-old reasoning unabated without recognizing or responding to my line of reasoning.

Just thinking about it makes me want to scream.

If you're a parent, you've been there:

"Son, you need to pick up your clothes. It's time for bed."

"I'm playing ball, daddy."

"Well, it's time for bed, so that means it's time to clean up. Let's get a move on."

"But daddy - I'm playing ball."

"I know that, son. I can see the ball. But again: it's time for bed. Time to clean up."

"But I'm playing ball!"

"Ok - obviously you're not getting what I'm saying. It is time for ball to be finished. You need your rest, or else you get cranky, so we need to put away your toys, go to the bathroom, brush your teeth, put on you pajamas, get into the bed and go to sleep. Now."

"But what about ball? I'm in the middle of a game."

"The game can wait until tomorrow, son. The ball isn't going anywhere."

"But I'm playing..."

"Son, get up, put the ball in the toy room right now, and go to your bathroom. This is your last warning."

"But..."

"BALL. AWAY. NOW!"

You know how it goes. Your reasonable parental request suddenly devolves into a mirror image of your kid's childish denial. Heck, you might even throw in a good foot stomp to really make it official.

Then, in the end, despite the fact that you won (usually), you feel like the world's biggest idiot for acting the way you did.

Actually, you wonder if you really won at all. Sure you got your way, but at what cost? Now your kid knows that being an obdurate jackwad can lead to getting your way. Great rhetorical victory there, dad.

And even if you don't have kids, you too can experience this phenomenon. Don't believe me? Check out the comment thread and . Go ahead. Read through. I'll wait.

Finished? Good.

Now, as a matter of full disclosure, I happen to not only be a Christian, but a full-time Baptist youth pastor.

But that doesn't mean I can't offer up some observations on the public discourse on matters of faith and religion.

Honestly, when I read both of Ben Cathey's articles I didn't think anything of them. The story he was addressing was one rooted specifically in Christian theology, specifically eschatology, and whom better to speak to those issues than a Christian minister? In my mind, it was an expert in the field offering commentary, no different than a science reporting writing about a new biological breakthrough in the lab.

So when I got to some of the comments, the ones that skipped over the content of the article and went straight to the ad hominem arguments, I felt a familiar urge to grind my teeth. I felt a little burble in my stomach and a sweat bead on my forehead.

The anger, however was two-pronged: as a Christian, I'm used to the devolution of any article on faith or science. See it all the time whenever someone like Christopher Hitchens or Ravi Zacharias posts an article. The haters always come out. Annoying, but it happens. So I wasn't completely surprised that it happened on Ben's posts.

But I was dismayed that it happened here. I've read lots of the pots in this particular Patch, and have always been pleased with the geniality and cordiality shown by the commenters. So I was angered by the intrusion of a familiar vitriol into what I had considered a safe place. I felt violated. Frustrated.

I felt like sending someone to timeout.

But you can't do that with adults. You can only reason, or try to reason, or you can let discussions dissolve into standoffs that might end with a knockdown. Sometimes, neither way really works.

And that's sad to me. We spend our children's formative years trying to instill in them virtues of discourse - be polite, say what you mean, listen to the other person's point of view, consider what's being said, think it through, respond with kindness - and then, when they've finally grown up, we release them into a world that, all too often, functions no differently than the one they lived in when they were five. Our teaching was for naught - instead of giving them coping mechanisms, we've only given them tools to frustrate them.

It's no wonder some kids don't want to grow up.

What's the answer? I don't know. The easy thing would be for every person to hold their beliefs sacred, and hold the beliefs of others equally sacred (you know, the whole Bill of Rights concept). But the thing about our most sacred beliefs is that they are sacred because we believe them to be right. And beliefs that are contrary to our own must, by definition, be wrong. And when something is wrong, we've all been taught, we're supposed to speak out against it.

So I get the ferver and fanaticism on both sides. But that doesn't make it pretty.

Or constructive.

I guess the answer is to just try and make a difference once person at a time. To be gracious in your private conversations and leave the public forum to those who most want their voice heard. Honestly, from my experience, people are influenced by the public but changed by the private.

And if we still can't make it work, then perhaps we all deserve a timeout.

Diana Kerbs May 23, 2011 at 05:50 pm
I think we do all need a timeout :-) great post! I really have to remeber that when Elizabeth is older (kids are not miniture adults) it's so true! It's so easy to think that they are because sometimes they do the most mature things (my little 8 year old sister seems like a 21 year old sometimes) but really they are just young people trying to figure things out. LOVE LOVE OVE it :-)
MamaKat Orr May 23, 2011 at 06:09 pm
Bravo!!! *clap clap clap* :-)
Jason Brooks May 23, 2011 at 06:18 pm
If the timeout also requires a nap, I'm totally down with that...
Jason Brooks May 23, 2011 at 06:19 pm
Thanks, MamaKat - I was afraid I might get hanged for this one.
Jason

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Sharon Swanepoel (Editor) June 19, 2013 at 09:16 am
David, it's still there we are just in the process of working out the bug on uploading photos toRead More articles that we authored (ugh!). I just didn't want to promote it and have people try and upload photos unsuccessfully. Depending on how long it takes to address this issue, I may keep June open through part of July - I hope not. If you have any photos you want to add, email them to me and I will upload them for you in the meantime.
Sharon Swanepoel (Editor) June 19, 2013 at 09:19 am
That is the strawberry fields. I have a picture of the strawberry fields between the welcome toRead More Loganville and welcome to Grayson signs that I will get up soon.
EMILY GOLDSTEIN June 18, 2013 at 09:49 pm
Rabies tag on dog leads to a disconnected owners number
Sharon Swanepoel (Editor) June 18, 2013 at 06:11 pm
Yea, sorry David. We are still dealing with some "issues." It rejected Jason's blog, andRead More none of us, not even our top regional editor, is being given authority to release it. Poor Jason, I know he so hates being rejected! And we hate it happening to him. The people not being "bugged" by technical issues, however, are reporting that it is super easy to use.
TheSkalawag June 19, 2013 at 08:10 am
I wonder. Will Patch restore the reply button and add a responded to your comment notification?
Sharon Swanepoel (Editor) June 19, 2013 at 09:21 am
Please keep these comments coming. We are forwarding all these issues to our production team. TheRead More ones that are most pressing are more likely to be addressed first. Once we have the initial roll out completed and working well, the tweaking will begin.
TheSkalawag June 18, 2013 at 08:29 pm
I don't think that Ray needs a tinfoil hat but I just don't see the inexorable march to theRead More dystopian world Ray is foretelling either. I do understand the gloom and doom outlook and I attribute that to the unrealistic quest for the Norman Rockwell version of life in America. That kind of life was made for tv. Life never really was like that. At least not that I remember anyway. And I would wager not for the majority of Americans.
Good Grief Y'all June 19, 2013 at 09:55 am
Ray was wearing his tinfoil hat when he wrote this. Yikes! America being dominated by fear andRead More repression is exactly what the progressives have been fighting against all along, especially so since 2007. Cynicism is creepy.
Dave June 19, 2013 at 03:12 pm
I have it on good authority that the revolution will begin in October. Stay tuned.
Sharon Swanepoel (Editor) June 18, 2013 at 03:05 pm
Tom, I will see if I can find the connection.
Sharon Swanepoel (Editor) June 18, 2013 at 05:51 pm
Good news! Her name is Izzi and she has been reunited with her owners.
Tom Laverick June 18, 2013 at 09:42 pm
Great News!!!!
TheSkalawag June 19, 2013 at 08:42 am
I agree with Raven Nichols. I think that it is more important to find out the reasons WHY kids areRead More contemplating and committing suicide. GGY is right. It is a dark subject and off putting but the fact that kids are taking their own lives at such a young and tender age is an even darker subject that can't wait to be addressed until they are in college they may not make it that far. I disagree with Tammy in that I don't think girls have don't have a more drama in High School than boys. It's just drama over different things. And I don't think that the teacher was looking for objectivity but insight into the reasons for teen suicides. After all who would have a better understanding of the why suicides occur in teens than other teens. I applaud the teacher.
Good Grief Y'all June 19, 2013 at 09:49 am
I see your point Skalawag and I raise it. Maybe this would be a good CDC survey subject. ImagineRead More the backlash, though! I still think it's a dangerous topic as a class assignment. We probably already know the reasons for teen suicide. We do need better methods and awareness to identify those at risk.
Dave June 19, 2013 at 03:18 pm
Yeah, that's the ticket! Get the government involved to tell us what to think. The CDC is a greatRead More place to start.
Octo Slash June 14, 2013 at 12:18 pm
My kids drink coffee every morning because they need something to accompany their cigarettes.
Tammy Osier June 14, 2013 at 01:12 pm
Tr - the perfect diet - the Mediterranean diet has a lot of fish in it. Olive oils etc... OurRead More American diet has a lot of animal fat in it and look at us as opposed to other nations! Fish oil is brain food. A multi is good, but we should ask our pediatricians about adding fish oil to our kids' diets. We should get our (good) fats through diet. Good fats help vitamins go where they are supposed to and do what they're supposed to do.
Deedee June 15, 2013 at 08:12 pm
My grandma always drunk coffee all day and I started around 30 and I am no good without at least oneRead More cup a day but she always stated that we couldn't have any as kids because it will stunt our growth. I have always felt that there is something to many of those old sayings and did not let my son touch it.
Tammy Osier June 17, 2013 at 01:53 pm
DR, seems like an oxymoron doesn't it? I'd like to hear from someone who is actually from there toRead More find out their spin on why they even enter a contestant in the first place. It's my understanding that a woman that shows that much skin in public will be flogged or worse? Maybe democracy is taking ahold in some places, who knows?
Good Grief Y'all June 17, 2013 at 03:24 pm
I was wrong. Guys are interested pageants. You would no doubt be happy if the contestants justRead More wore the face shawl with their bikinis.
Karsten Torch June 17, 2013 at 04:30 pm
Couple of thoughts - One, why hold it in a land where there is going to be this kind of protest?Read More Just move it and don't worry about it. Other, I find it interesting how the Muslims want us to be understanding and inclusive of their beliefs, but don't even think they'll allow anything they don't agree with. Just a tad bit hypocritical...
R June 14, 2013 at 02:06 am
You mean the FEES don't you? Cause they aint taxes don't you know...
Bonnie June 14, 2013 at 11:50 am
I call it a "rainbow!"
M.K. Osborne June 14, 2013 at 03:30 pm
Fees is when its lightning too .
Mr. B June 13, 2013 at 01:29 pm
They're not Americans. They don't deserve to step foot on American soil.
Good Grief Y'all June 13, 2013 at 01:34 pm
Meh, a difference without distinction.
Good Grief Y'all June 13, 2013 at 01:37 pm
Huh, you learn something once in a while on Patch blog threads. I didn't know you must be anRead More American citizen to be tried and convicted of crimes against America . . . ;p I think John and Sarah could handle them . . . you betcha! They would probably beg to be sent back to Gitmo. LOL