Should the President Have Invoked Executive Privilege on Fast and Furious?
If the investigation into "Fast and Furious" was strictly a Department of Justice issue, and not connected to the White House, should President Barack Obama have invoked executive privilege in the matter?
In a surprise move before the deadline ran out on a threat by congressional Republicans to hold U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress, the president threw a curveball.
According to media outlets, including The Huffington Post, President Barack Obama invoked executive privilege Wednesday, essentially withholding documents a committee was demanding from Holder. The documents were requested for an investigation into "Fast and Furious" — the name given to an operation launched to track weapons purchased by Mexican drug cartels. It turned sour, however, when agents lost track of more than 1,000 firearms and two turned up at the scene of the murder of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry. The family of the dead border agent is reportedly condemning the move not to allow for full disclosure.
While it is the first time Obama has invoked this privilege, previous administrations have done it often. President George Bush invoked it six times and President Bill Clinton 14 times. With it being used now by Obama, it brings up all the old arguments made against previous administrations that “if there is nothing to hide, why hide?” Obama, as a senator, had asked that same question of the Bush administration. His own move drew swift criticism from House Republicans, including this comment by Speaker John Boehner’s press secretary, reported in The Huffington Post:
"Until now, everyone believed that the decisions regarding 'Fast and Furious' were confined to the Department of Justice. The White House decision to invoke executive privilege implies that White House officials were either involved in the 'Fast and Furious' operation or the cover-up that followed. The administration has always insisted that wasn't the case. Were they lying, or are they now bending the law to hide the truth?"
So what do you think? Should the president have invoked executive privilege in this case? If it was indeed outside the White House and strictly an issue with the Department of Justice, should he have stayed out of it and let the chips fall where they may? Tell us what you think in comments below.
North Georgia Weather
10:06 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
It appears to be illegal.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/06/20/president-obama-attorney-general-holder-and-executive-privilege/
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
4:11 pm on Monday, June 25, 2012
For those who need a refresher of what has happened to date, please see the link to Jon Stewart’s Daily Show below BEFORE reading the rest of these posts…
Even if you are NOT a regular fan of the show, this particular episode is worth your time.
And if you have only “heard” about him elsewhere, this is one you NEED to check out.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/373627
Peter
9:29 pm on Monday, June 25, 2012
This appears to be a link to Fox News - yet another opinion piece, then.
Brian Crawford
10:10 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Long ago. Holder has been more than cooperative and has suffered some of the poorest treatment of a government official I've ever witnessed by Republican members of the House Judicial Committee. This whole exercise has been a shameless political circus orchestrated by Congress's biggest egomaniac Darrell Issa. Why are Republicans wasting their time on this when they should be creating jobs?
David
10:12 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Why is Eric Holder wasting time on this when his president should be creating jobs?
Floyd Akridge
12:40 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Brian...I could have written your post for you and saved you the effort. The simple truth is that you hate Republicans and no treatment would be acceptable to you.
But I love how, in your hate, you exposed yourself. Brian...the government does not create jobs as Barak Obama has proven so dramatically well. The private sector does that....even when government led as it is by a card carrying socialist. In fact Given BO's direct and intentional interference with private sector job creation, private industry has done a fantastic job.
But back to the issue at hand. Holder stinks to high heaven...even haters like yourself know that. If executive privilidge was necessary it was necessary months and months ago. The truth here is that the truth was about to come out and God forbid that.
But the cool thing is that it still will come out and BO will look like someone just trying to cover it up. More votes for our side in November.
Brian...January 20, 2013 is going to be a bad day for you.
Brian Crawford
3:53 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Floyd, hate's a strong word. I don't hate Republicans, I just think they are incredibly misguided...and sometimes grossly inaccurate. Take your last statement for example. Government does indeed create millions of public sector jobs. My wife is a school teacher, her job was created by government. My brother, a staunch Conservative much like yourself, recently retired after serving as a District Attorney for 30 years. His was a government job as well. I love to remind him of that by the way and also the fact that between his pension and Social Security he owes his entire livelihood to government programs (he hates that).
As much as you hate to admit it the recent government stimulus created or saved millions of jobs nationwide including hundreds of teachers jobs right there in Gwinnett County. Extending unemployment benefits and food stamps pumps money into the economy helping create private sector jobs. Many other government programs do the same.
Over the last 3 years the private sector has created over 4 million jobs. Many of those were created with the help of government subsidies. So it is flat out wrong to say government doesn't create jobs.
Rich Rewkowski
4:13 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Brian...neither your wife's nor your brother's jobs are revenue producers. They exist solely because of the funds allotted to them by private industry and taxpayer-enabled dollars. Once again for those who are dense, government does not produce jobs.
North Georgia Weather
4:34 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Brian, we've already nixed the idea that the government stimulus saved hundreds of teacher jobs in Gwinnett. It's simply not the case.
Yes, the government has jobs. But the government doesn't need to expand to create more jobs, that's what the private sector is for. Please, we need to shrink the government, not expand it.
Brian Crawford
6:25 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
So would you like to start by giving up your job Steve?
Brian Crawford
11:05 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
@Rich. I don't think that's true. A job is a job is a job. Take a teachers job for example. In a private school system the teacher creates revenue by providing a service that her employer is paid for in tuition. Part of that revenue pays her salary and other COB but the rest ultimately ends up with the business owner (perhaps a corporation) as profit, enriching a few.
In a public school system the teacher creates revenue by providing a service that her employer, the government, is paid for in taxes. In this instance taxes take the place of tuition. Less taxes are needed to provide the same service because profit is not an issue. The excess revenue in taxes that would enrich a few can now go towards other public needs and enrich many.
This of course would not work for all segments of our economy, but for large monopolistic enterprises that provide for the common good like schools, police, fire departments, highways, hospitals, etc., it is the ideal. One of the main reasons health care costs have exploded over the last 30 years is the privatization of our hospitals.
I love the free market when it comes to making sausage. I like a variety of sausages of various levels of quality and price made by different sausage makers. But not everyone needs sausage like they do police and fire protection, or health care for that matter. For those needs the free market is less than ideal. That is why we have a mixed economy.
Floyd Akridge
11:44 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Sorry Brian but the Stimulus didn't do diddly....except add to the deficit. Remember...unemployment wasn't going to go above 8% if we passed the stimulus remember? Instead...it hasn't been BELOW 8% for 41 consecutive months now.
I like your 4 million jobs in the private sector thing...are you taking the same tact that BO did when the grossly pathetic June jobs number came out? He talked about the number of jobs he's created in the last 27 months....except that he's been President for 41 months...what happened to those other 14? The statistical truth here is that BO has a net ZERO job creation during his term....zero net jobs with spending that is worse than any other president in history.
Sorry Brian...the US won't be fooled again. It'll be a close election but President Obama is citizen Obama @ 12:01 pm January 20, 2013.
North Georgia Weather
10:22 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
They're spending time on it because it's the example of a bigger problem, an out of control government that thinks they are above the laws of this country.
It should be called the Injustice Department.
Brian Crawford
10:29 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
You watch way too much FOX news Steve. This is an entirely manufactured controversy.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
11:55 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
I bet the families of the Border Patrol Agents have an entirely different take ...
For a man that doesn't care for guns in public; I'd think you would be on the other side on this issue.
But I guess YOUR family hasn't experienced it yet - so best to leave it alone ...
Or is it because this can’t be blamed ENTIRELY on Bush since the president has claimed to give advice?
Racer X
12:07 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Jesus Christ Brian.
Floyd Akridge
12:43 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
R...you have to understand that Brian hates Republicans...but his words are correct...it is a manufactured controversy....manufactured by the ATF and the Justice Department....and an American was killed because of it.
Brian Crawford
4:19 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
I thought F & F was an ill conceived, poorly executed program. I am satisfied that Holder shut down the program once he became aware that "gunwalking" was taking place and that there was no wrong doing on his part. Holder has provided hours of testimony and reams of documents to Congress. Enough is enough.
The death of the federal agents was indeed tragic but as you guys love to point out every time I mention the slightest hint at gun control, criminals can always get their hands on guns.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
6:27 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Yes indeed, CRIMINALS can get guns by theft . .
Just NOT usually FROM our FEDERAL Government, which makes it just a tiny bit more "special" and deserving of attention.
North Georgia Weather
10:31 am on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Not sure what part about breaking the law you don't get Brian? You can't just pick and choose what laws you want to follow.
American Patriot
12:02 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Not to get off point but the government does not create jobs. Never did never will. One thing is for sure the exe branch has had too much power (includes both parties). I find it arrogant and repulsive that information is withheld from the house oversight committee when it is requested. Congress is constitutionally entitled to any information it wants when it is using it's oversight authority. (Checks and Balances). Exe. priviledge does not apply when covering up wrong doing. The oversight committee has received enough evidence from whistle blowers to request this info and it needs to be turn over immediately. The program clearly violates US law and a border patrol agent was killed on duty with weapons from the program. This is not a political issue. It is about reigning in the exe branch now and setting a precedent for the future.(I can't stress enough this is not a party issue. I would take the same position if a rep. was in office). Brian Terry deserves justice and so do the civilian Mexicans killed with these weapons.
Floyd Akridge
12:44 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
well said
Steven Hawn
1:02 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Fast and Furious was nothing more than a program to increase gun control here in the US. There were other programs in place prior to Obama taking office. It was after his taking office that the scope of the program was changed and thus Fast and Furious was born. They made tragic errors and it cost people their lives. Now Obama wants to throw up a smoke screen and invoke executive priviledge. It only applies if the White House either was involved in the formation of this program or in it's cover up. If that is the case the White House has lied to Congress and the American people because they have emphatically stated they had no knowledge of this whatsoever. This administration has continually thumbed it's nose at the law, and overstep their authority. They have broken the law, and it resulted in deaths. If you remember your history we would have impeached a President (Nixon) for far less if he had not resigned. I say get it right and throw this far left socialist and bald faced liar out of office.
Brian Crawford
4:22 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Hey, didn't I see you on the Sean Hannity program last night?
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
10:14 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
No Brian, it was probably a mis-edited tape segment of Sean Hannity that you saw on MSNBC, its easy to get confused that way... ( Smiles)
Brian Crawford
10:45 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Yeah, I saw that. I expect more from Andrea Mitchell. Her show must have hired a new producer from FOX (Smiles back). I wrote a note of complaint to the show.
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
11:15 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
You mean one Fox let go ... (smiles)
Tammy Osier
1:54 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
"Why are Republicans wasting their time on this when they should be creating jobs?"
Because something that started as a way to get certain gun control legislation passed blew up in their faces when an agent got murdered by one of the guns that our government sold them. That's why. Stay tuned...many of those involved are now rolling over with evidence (they taped kept documents).
Brian Crawford
4:24 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
You guys love the evil Obama gun control conspiracy theories don't you? Stay tuned...the jokes on you.
Tammy Osier
1:55 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Good post Steven Hawn.
American Patriot
7:16 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
@Brian you fail to miss the point here. This has nothing to do with Obama. The exe branch has become too powerful and needs to be reigned in. The constitution gives the congress the authority of oversight. Frankly I wish the congress had taken a tougher position with Bush on the Iraq war but that is another issue. A soft congress is one of the reasons we are at this point but it needs to stop. Presidents need to consult congress. That is the way the system is set up. I am not happy with the fact this is being played along party lines either. I have paid close attention to this. It seems to me the dems have been the ones playing politics with the issue. You can not tell me based on evidence received from the whistle blowers and the documents received to date from the doj (which by the way have been totally scrubbed and many paragraphs blacked out). that the dems can reasonably conclude no wrong doing. Their job is to investigate the issue properly and I don't that happening.
Msgoff
1:43 am on Sunday, July 1, 2012
American Patriot, you are absolutely right, the executive branch has become too powerful; however, it should have been reigned in YEARS ago; probably before many of us were born. We didn't know all of the stuff that was happening because we did not have the media in it's current state and technology to spread the truth and lies in a heart beat. Let's not even talk about Bush's war and all of the lives and money it has cost us. Why?
Stanley
4:01 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Reminds me of a do nothing Rebublican Congress trying to impeach.
Thousands of guns have been sold to Mexican Cartels across the border.
Simply a misguided aventure, isolated to a specific region that is desperately trying to stop the flow of arms to ruthless criminals, started during the Bush Administration Justice department.
My thoughts!
American Patriot
7:31 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
@Stanley you are incorrect on the date the program started. Started September 2009 and ended January 2011. Bush may have had something similar but I am unaware of it. I agree with you that is was misguided venture. Happens to be illegal also. Just because the gov does something does not make it legal. We need to investigate and then prosecute. Here is something else you may want to ask yourself "why would the US Gov want to give arms to drug cartels in Mexico"? I can think of no good reason other then to kill each other and that does not sound likely. If we were trying to do good w/the weapons we would have gotten them into the hands of the civilians or local police. If a president wanted to do that he would have had to consult with congress first. The more you look at this objectively the more the program really stinks. I wonder how many more are operating as we speak? From experience sadly I know it is more and it needs to stop.
Tammy Osier
4:20 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
When people in power abuse their power to the point where they think they are above the law then we have an impeachment process. They should be held to a higher standard. It's usually the ones that have a fuzzy view of the law that feel thse things are a waste of time. If it's a political ploy, then it will be found out as such. But if the federal government will play with the lives of americans for political expediency, then we need to send a strong message.
Tammy Osier
4:36 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
"neither your wife's nor your brother's jobs are revenue producers. They exist solely because of the funds allotted to them by private industry and taxpayer-enabled dollars."
OK. When private industry produces jobs, it CREATES taxpayers. The government (aka the people) does not just produce money out of thin air to employ government workers - that comes from taxes (as does the stimulus money). If the private industry is not hiring people, then no taxes are being collected. When the private sector is working properly, you actually get MORE money going into the federal coffer. What's laughable is that people have this idea that the great benevolent king is sitting up there pulling money out of his pocket and throwing it out for people to pick up. No! That's not his money - it belongs to all of us!
Tammy Osier
6:04 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
For those who think it's purely political....how exactly will you reaact if it's found out that it was indeed a cover-up? Will you accept it or blindly defend the man to the death?
Tammy Osier
7:00 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
By the same token, if it's proven that it's a croc, I'll admit it as well. Us Republicans are generally humble folk. :))
Brian Crawford
9:15 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
Hey! I just had an epiphany. MAYbe, we were selling arms to Mexican drug lords to fund a secret war with Iran...how ironic would that be? Hahahaha (Iran/Contra...get it?).
American Patriot
9:35 pm on Thursday, June 21, 2012
LOL
Deanna LaPrade
8:42 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Why hide it? Smells fishy...
Bobby Sargent
10:22 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Brian~ Ask the Families of 300 Mexicans and 1 Border Patrol agent that were killed by those weapons if it was Manufactured by the Republicans, If youre not hiding anything then you have nothing to hide! You Protect the Corrupt~ Are you Proud?
Bobby Sargent
10:34 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
The NSA started the F&F program under Bush, When Bush found out He shut it Down and Obama Reopened it when he became President~ Why He restarted it is Probably in those Papers They Refuse To Release.
Bobby Sargent
10:39 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Regan didnt Blame any of his Successes on Jimmy Carter~ Get it?
Floyd Akridge
11:47 pm on Friday, June 22, 2012
Reagan didn't have to...Carter lost 48 states in the 1980 election. We all understood.
Speaking of Democrats losing...Al Gore lost his home precinct in the 2000 election if I remember correctly.
Racer X
7:59 am on Saturday, June 23, 2012
I have a number of liberal friends and we don't talk politics. The reason is that we agree on 85% of most issues but always end up focusing on the 15% we don't agree on. The media and both parties insist that the battle is between the Republicans and the Democrats when the truth is we are all Americans and agree on the majority of ideals. Our focus is being aimed at each other when all of us should be focused on the government as a whole. We, as Americans, together, are all getting screwed by the Federal Government and we need to reign it in as a whole. We need to stop bickering with each other, unite as Americans and do something about this unbearable, repressing, self-growing tumor that we have let get out of control. Republicans and Democrats fighting with each other is doing NOTHING but distracting us from the real Monster. We will get nowhere until we make it less lucrative to be a politician. We need to think about short terms, little pay and no retirement plan for politicians. Politicians should represent us out of a sense of duty then return to their own profession when finished as per the original Constitutional ideal. Career politicians are our problem, not Republicans vs Democrats.
Brian Crawford
9:31 am on Saturday, June 23, 2012
Mike I agree with almost all of that but I don't think term limits are the answer. I want an experienced legislator representing me. The real answer is getting big money out of the election process.
North Georgia Weather
8:34 am on Saturday, June 23, 2012
Amen Mike. You said it all right there.
Sharon Swanepoel
9:23 am on Saturday, June 23, 2012
Another Amen to Mike from me.
Brian Crawford
9:25 am on Saturday, June 23, 2012
I think the communications the American people really deserve to see are the emails between Issa, Republican leadership, and the NRA lobbyists paying for this "controversy".
Brian Crawford
7:31 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
Gee Mike, first you call me a fool (in another thread) and now you're making fun of my tumor shaped head. I suppose it should hurt my feelings and it probably would if I thought you had any idea what you were talking about. We already have term limits, they're called elections. Just ask Dick Lugar. Not that I don't somewhat agree with the sentiment but where exactly in the Constitution is the notion that "politicians should represent us out of a sense of duty then return to their own profession when finished". In fact I believe the Supreme court has ruled that Congressional term limits are unconstitutional.
Kristi Reed
7:49 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
Hi Brian - Sorry didn't catch that earlier. The comment has been deleted.
We do ask everyone abide by our terms of service and please refrain from personal attacks. If you see a comment that is inappropriate, please email your local editor or click the "flag as inappropriate" link above the comment.
Brian Crawford
9:17 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
Honestly Kristi, I'm not that thin skinned. You could have left it.
Racer X
9:22 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
I never said it was in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers so admired the Roman Cincinnatus, the farmer called to war who became dictator only to set aside the laurel wreath and go back to his plow that they named a city in Ohiofor him. He was their ideal model of the citizen-soldier-politician, a man who did his duty then went back home to his family – and to a real job. George Washington even founded a society of that name, one still in existence today and open to descendents of officers of the Continental and French armies who fought in the Revolution.
Washington, like the pseudo-legendary Cincinnatus, would weep or at least heave a deep sigh and mutter a disapproving tsk-tsk at the career politicians of today – men or women who if they ever did guide a plow or its equivalent, will do anything short of murder to not have to return to that pastoral or equivalent working life. Even the lawyers in Congress, who now account for an unnaturally large and demographically unrepresentative two-thirds of the membership of the House, not only sell their souls to avoid going back home into practice – they actively and eagerly seek out the modern day Fausti in the Pacs, Super-Pacs and other special interest groups whose money binds them to the Netherworld of Capital Hill.
Also, I apologize about my comment regarding the shape of your head.
Brian Crawford
9:34 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
"Politicians should represent us out of a sense of duty then return to their own profession when finished as per the original Constitutional ideal"
Sorry, I must have read that wrong? People often talk about our FF as if they were monolithic thinkers and of course they weren't. They argued over some of the same things we argue over today...like term limits. The Constitution itself was a do-over, hence the "more perfect union" line.
Actually I've always thought my head was shaped more like a tuber than a tumor.
Racer X
9:26 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
The presidency has term limits (the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution, proposed in 1947, ratified four years later). In 36 states (although not, incidentally, Connecticut) governors are also restricted to the number of years or terms they can serve. The days of mayors-for-life (like Albany’s late Erastus Corning or Chicago’s now departed Richard J. Daley) are also numbered, or at least being limited by cities and towns all over America.
So why should congressmen be free to turn public service into a career? What makes them special? Nothing – and that is the very point of being a representative in the lower house of a bicameral legislature.
Senates and Houses of Lords are where the wise grey-beards are supposed to sit, like in Romeand Londonand other empires of old. These are traditionally the patriarchs, (and now some matriarchs) of property who prevent the ship of state from listing too far to one side or the other, lest it capsize (and sink the fortunes of the wealthy). Even in a Republic such a body has its role. While many similar arguments can be made for how many decades or generations anyone should warm a seat on that side of the Capitol, many senators might be inclined to support term limits providing it only restricted those born on the other side of the political blanket.
Brian Crawford
9:42 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
So we want to be just like the fallen empires of old? If a district feels they are being represented well by some old buzzard with 25 years of experience under his belt, who are we to deny them of that representation? Experience is generally viewed as a good thing.
Racer X
9:30 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
On average members of the current House serve ten years – or five terms. Prior to World War One the average was only two terms – with one in three representatives refusing to stand for a second election, preferring like Cincinnatus to go home to their profession, their community and their family. No longer. Holding down a seat in the House is now such an attractive and lucrative position – made so by both special interest investments and perks granted by the members themselves – that to all but the wealthiest of office holders to voluntarily stand aside to let someone else represent their district seems the height of financial folly.
There are many ways that the Senate and People of Rome (or the United States, its most similar modern equivalent) could make Congress less immediately lucrative. With corporations now declared people by the highest court in the land and members unlikely to snip their own purse strings, the cleanest, simplest and most likely method is to just set a limit on how long anyone can stay in the House.
Brian Crawford
2:29 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
I completely agree that money is the corrupting influence but I don't see how term limits does a thing to stop that. If anything I think that better positions Corporations to control the system. If you know you're only in it for the short term it seems to me you would be much more open to corruption. Under strict term limits I see a future where corporations groom Corporate candidates to serve with their backing for short terms and then return to corporate servitude. Quite frankly I view Corporatism a greater danger to our democracy than Communism ever was.
Racer X
3:45 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
We do not live in a Democracy, we are a Republic.
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html
Brian Crawford
5:24 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Sorry, I didn't know you were one of those folks. I'm well versed in the false distinction you're attempting to make. Yes we are a Republic. Yes we also have a democratic form of government. If you hate democracy there are alternatives out there for you.
Peter
9:35 pm on Monday, June 25, 2012
The whole Republic/Democracy thing is a Neal Boortz talking point. The hair is split.
Racer X
9:31 pm on Saturday, June 23, 2012
It might take another amendment to the Constitution to enforce term limits, but how could any member of Congress fight that without appearing as vain and corrupt as five out of six people already suspect or believe?
Restoring the House to a Cincinnatus model of service instead of a place for careerists could also help curb the power of the special interests. It would at least give pause to many of their bigger donors, as term limits would reduce the number of years over which they could amortize their investments.
*My last four posts are from an article by Mark McLaughlin.
Racer X
8:34 am on Sunday, June 24, 2012
So, Brian Crawford is wiser than George Washington? George Washington was a brilliant man, I'm not buying it.
When you want to argue with any point a conservative attempts to make, you become just as bad as the conservative who argues with every point a liberal makes. Both of you then become stooges of the government for buying into the idea that we are each other's nemesis when in fact we, as Americans, are all on the same team and our Federal Government has become our real enemy. Power breeds corruption and the longer a person is in office, the more likely he/she will succumb to human nature. Pity, but it is true. We, as a species, are badly flawed in that way. Without limits, man becomes evil. Have you ever read Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness"? It is a brilliant look into human nature. Given that you dispute George Washington's ideals, I doubt you have any respect for Conrad either but I figured it was worthwhile for others reading this exchange.
Peace out, I'm done.
Brian Crawford
2:28 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
I'm certainly not wiser than Washington, or Conrad for that matter, but the world is a much different place today than it was in the time of the Framers. Aside from the fact that electricity hadn't been invented yet, the Framers would never have allowed Corporations to exist in the way they exist today. The notion that corporations are people is insanity.
Racer X
3:28 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Man is as he has always been.
Mark
6:55 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
I want to know why we still haven't seen anyone punished/reprimanded whatever for this whole F&F fiasco. The only thing that happened was those in the local AZ office got a promotion! Somebody had to put their OK on this. That's all we want to know. Who and when did they know. Holder just keeps dancing around the answer.
Tammy Osier
8:30 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
From the beginning the scheme was to pad statistics on U.S. guns in Mexico in order to be in a strengthened position to call for gun bans and strict gun control at a time when it was politically unpopular. Recall Hillary being obsessed with statistics on guns and gun control. Every president seems to have their "gate'. Obama has had a few of those. Even if other presidents had their scandals, it doesn't mean that all have to. So many secrets and cover ups in the last 4 years. It'd be nice to see a president with integrity for once. Unfortunately the decent guys probably don't want to subject their families to the media crucifixion that they're likely to encounter by running (I'm thinking Sarah palin and her family for one).
Brian Crawford
9:00 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
Tammy, while I understand this little conspiracy theory has been all over FOX "news", there are no facts to facts to back this up. It is a complete fantasy. The only "gate" here is the one separating FOX's "reporting" of the news from reality.
Tammy Osier
10:10 pm on Sunday, June 24, 2012
I don't have cable so haven't had access to FOX news in quite a while. It might have started as something legit, bit when it went bad our government used it to their advantage to legitimize their claims about gun control legislation. Notice how close those two thing occurred. You are very partisan and simply will never be objective enough to believe that your party can do wrong. I beg to differ. We'll see once the investigation is done.
Brian Crawford
6:12 pm on Tuesday, June 26, 2012
Does it not bother you folks that America's most powerful lobbing group, the NRA, is orchestrating this whole sham?
Racer X
6:50 pm on Tuesday, June 26, 2012
Boy, you love some attention don't you. What exactly is a lobbing group? A group that lobs? It is best, for credibility's sake, to think about spelling when your brain farts out an idea, lest people think you are ignorant.
Brian Crawford
7:16 pm on Tuesday, June 26, 2012
Sorry I misspelled a word Mike, so shoot me.
Peter
9:15 pm on Tuesday, June 26, 2012
Nice ad hominem attack, Mike. Care to address his point?
Racer X
9:47 pm on Tuesday, June 26, 2012
No, he has no point. He is just doing this for attention. This issue is no sham. It is not orchestrated by the NRA.
Brian Crawford
10:33 pm on Tuesday, June 26, 2012
The NRA has congress shaking in their boots over the contempt vote. Hardly a fair hearing for Holder. Issa's their boy.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/233737-nra-to-score-house-contempt-vote-on-holder
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/06/26/hoyer-some-dems-will-vote-to-hold-holder-in-contempt-for-fast-and-furious/
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/issa-peddled-conspiracy-theory-nra-convention-called-fast-and-furious-attack-2nd-amendment
Brian Crawford
3:18 pm on Wednesday, June 27, 2012
This just out today from Fortune magazine. Looks like you've all been had by the Republican Outrage machine. And this is where I smile and say "I told you so"! You're welcome.
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
North Georgia Weather
4:31 pm on Wednesday, June 27, 2012
LOL! That "proves" nothing! You've been had by the Democratic media machine!
And this is where I smile and say "I told you so"! You're welcome.
Brian Crawford
4:45 pm on Wednesday, June 27, 2012
Fortune is the "Democratic media machine"?
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
2:09 am on Thursday, June 28, 2012
SO according to you, if I understand both your position and this article the NRA and CBS are at fault ...
There are many issues that seem to point disarray within ATF and DOJ but we shouldn't worry. Since the text below describes a COMPLETELY legal function and this example is one of many throughout the article, it seems to be tilted somewhat left of center.
"Hurley is an avid gun enthusiast, according to two law-enforcement sources who worked with him. One of those sources says he saw Hurley behind the counter at a gun show, helping a friend who is a weapons dealer."
A couple of other segments just for fun below
"The ATF is a bureau of judgment calls. Drug enforcement agents can confiscate cocaine and arrest anyone in possession of it. But ATF agents must distinguish constitutionally protected legal guns from illegal ones, with the NRA and other Second Amendment activists watching for missteps."
Sounds eerily like immigration enforcement in AZ and the DOJ don't you think?
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
2:11 am on Thursday, June 28, 2012
"comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one."
"Day after day, they visited local gun dealers and pored over forms called 4473s, which dealers must keep on file. These contain a buyer's personal information, a record of purchased guns and their serial numbers, and a certification that the buyer is purchasing the guns for himself. (Lying on the forms is a felony, but with weak penalties attached.) The ATF agents manually entered these serial numbers into a database of suspect guns to help them build a picture of past purchases."
So is this database destroyed somewhere? somehow? AH HUH ...
"It was the first time Voth learned that Dodson intended to walk guns. Voth says he refused to approve the plan and instead consulted his supervisor, who asked for a proposal from Dodson in writing. Dodson then drafted one, which Voth forwarded to his supervisor, who approved it on May 28."
So the guns grow legs ... AH HUH
R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"
2:14 am on Thursday, June 28, 2012
(A CBS spokeswoman, Sonya McNair, says CBS does not publicly discuss its editorial process but notes, "The White House has already acknowledged the truth of our report.")
So the Whitehouse either knows or has NO clue of what they DON'T know...
"Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau. That came as news to the ATF agents in Group VII."
Where are Mulder, Scully and the smoking man?
"But the public bludgeoning of the ATF has had the opposite effect. From 2010, when Congress began investigating, to 2011, gun seizures by Group VII and the ATF's three other groups in Phoenix dropped by more than 90%."
No longer chasing FBI assets
Nothing to see here, Now lets just go off and create "jobs" Shall we?